Interviewee: Thelma Flanagan
Date: August 10, 1993
Location: University of Mississippi
Description: Thelma Flanagan was involved in child nutrition programs in the State of Florida from the 1930s until her death in 2001. She was a strong advocate in the national drive for professionalism in food services. She became the Florida School Food Service Director in 1943, served as school lunch consultant to the USDA, was President of the American School Food Service Association 1949-1950, served as Chairman of the Southern States Work Conference Committee, and was the author of numerous publications regarding school feeding programs.
Josephine Martin: Thelma, would you share with us the recipe for a good personnel program in child nutrition?
Thelma Flanagan: Well, you have asked a big question. But, first, you want to have sound specifications and guidelines for selecting those personnel, and then find people that meet all of those specifications. And they include a love of children, a love of good nutrition, an ability, and a continuous following of directions.
JM: If you had to choose one of these ingredients in that recipe which one would you consider the most important?
TF: Well, since it is job performance, the knowledge of and the intent to provide well prepared, nutritionally adequate, appealing food for the children.
JM: Talk to us a little bit about continuing education and being prepared to serve children.
TF: We live in an ever changing world, and so continuing education is not stopping when you have a certain degree or when you have met the qualifications for getting the job, but keeping abreast of the times by being a member of a professional association, and by part-time study, things of that sort.
JM: Does a person have to go to a classroom to have continuing education, or are there other ways of getting continuing education?
TF: There are other ways of getting continuing education, and that is being members of a professional association and participating in its activities, and seeing the other resources that are available, meeting with other people within the profession and exchanging experiences.
JM: Do you think a recognition program for child nutrition people is important?
TF: Yes, I do. I think it is very important. I think it is one of the incentives for people to keep abreast, for people to improve, for people to render better service.
JM: You have for a long time advocated certification of child nutrition personnel, and now the American School Food Service Association has a certification program. Do you think that is adequate or should that be improved?
TF: Well, I think that it needs to be clearly defined and implemented, and that the school boards will accept the need for having qualified personnel in that child nutrition program, just as they do teachers in the classrooms, and that they will use those specifications when they establish their department, or when they are hiring replacements, and so that the initial planning and employment of personnel gets the right person in the school’s department.
JM: When you were talking about a recipe, you mention that love, and loving and caring for children was an important ingredient. How important is that in the child nutrition programs?
TF: I think it is one of the most important ingredients, because a person may take a great pride in producing food, but unless that food is designed to meet those children’s needs, and unless they see that the children are accepting it and enjoying it and benefiting from it, you are not getting the maximum good that you should from the program.
JM: Most of our discussion so far has centered around personnel at the school level. What kind of requirements are needed at the school district, the state, and the national level?
TF: Well, that, I think, is parallel to what we have in the rest of the educational program. If you are hunting an elementary education supervisor, you expect to have somebody who has higher qualifications and more training and experience than the classroom teacher she is supervising. You have the exact parallel in a child nutrition program, that your management personnel need to have the qualifications parallel to what a principal or a supervisor would have in their departments, and that is that they have had experience and training that is better than the production employee has.
JM: Now you were on a national committee back in the ’40s to talk about qualifications for child nutrition personnel. What kinds of recommendations did you make then, and who was on that committee?
TF: I didn’t make them. We had a joint committee of the American Home Economics Association, the American Dietetic Association, and the American School Food Service Association. When we sat down together we developed our proposed recommendations for the qualifications of all supervisory personnel, and they would all have at least a bachelor’s degree within the field.
JM: That was an ambitious undertaking and we are still looking to achieve that goal, aren’t we?
TF: We still have not achieved that goal, and yet in the classrooms where any other supervisor, whether it is art, education, or any other field, you would expect the supervisory personnel to have degrees in the field that they were supervising.
JM: Why have we not achieved that? Is it because we don’t have the standards or we lack the training programs? Is it the problem for the universities and colleges, or, just why haven’t we achieved that goal?
TF: There are probably many reasons why we haven’t. We have not had the school officials who have recognized that that is parallel to the instructional programs and needs similar qualifications. I think that is the main answer, that we have never had the education personnel or there has not been the organization of School Food Service personnel who have taken the initiative and established and recommended the adoption of sound standards.
JM: Now you were very active in the Southern States Work Conference back in the ’40s and the ’50s and even the ’60s; and I believe that you all identified a role for school principals. What is the role of the school principal in the school nutrition program?
TF: Well, of course, it exactly parallels what he does for all the branches of his education program. He must have a sound philosophy. He must be committed to it. He must promote it. He must insist that they have the qualified personnel, with the proper pay, with the proper facilities, just as he does for every other department in the school. He should not treat it any different than what he does with any other department in the school. He is the hub of the wheel.
JM: And we should also say, if the principal is a female, she should have those, right?
TF: That is right. Exactly.
JM: Because back in the forties we had a lot of male principals, but now we are seeing a lot of female principals in there. In looking at what the National Food Service Management Institute can do to improve the personnel opportunities, we need to have you give us some direction.
TF: Now you’ve put a really big question out there.
JM: What direction would you suggest that the National Food Service Management Institute [take] in helping?
TF: Well, first, is we lack the materials for establishing standards and training the personnel nationwide. And you are developing those materials through your programs that are available on TV.
JM: So developing materials is one thing.
TF: And conducting programs that are available to the people over the nation.
Ty Warren: Is there any accepted standard of competencies and level of competency for the positions, and should there be?
JM: Is there, do you feel that there is a need for establishing levels of competency for child nutrition personnel?
TF: Yes. We have it for other aspects of the education program.
JM: And how would you suggest that we would recognize those who have achieved those levels of competency?
TF: Well, just as you do with the teaching profession, that they have a bachelor’s degree or a master’s degree in the teaching profession. We could have certified and non-certified personnel and we could set up varying degrees of certification.
JM: Are there some other ways that we can recognize child nutrition personnel other than through the formal certification program, such as giving people a pat on the back when they do a good job, recognizing them?
TF: Well, yes, you could have recognition programs at the state conventions. You can have recognition for the people who have met certain qualifications through our journals and things of that sort.
JM: One word that we are hearing a lot about today in personnel is “empowered personnel,” personnel who really accept responsibility wherever they are in the organization, and you’ve talked about caring personnel. How do we help promote caring personnel, personnel who assume responsibility, who see their job as a mission in life?
TF: I think some of the materials that you are developing right here at the National Food Service Management Institute will serve as a challenge to accomplish those very goals.
JM: You have given us a lot of good information about personnel, and I think you have said that personnel is the key that makes the difference in child nutrition programs. I’d like for us to talk a little bit now about some of those early days in child nutrition , and the role of the Southern States Work Conference, how it got started, and the impact of the Southern States Work Conference on the development of the child nutrition programs.
TF: Well, back in the early ’40s, school leaders from 14 southern states decided to get together and think through the needs of their respective programs, whether it was art or music or school transportation. And so they began to meet together, leaders in education from 14 southern states, in Daytona Beach, Florida, and developed bulletins. They had a transportation bulletin, a financing bulletin, and bulletins of that sort. When I joined the state department of education, it was just before they were going to have their next conference, and as a new member of the staff they invited me to go along. I saw there immediately the potential for school food service people to get together and to benefit from it, and so we established a School Lunch workshop there. And for three years we worked together and developed a School Lunch Policies and Standards bulletin that was used throughout the United States. It had specifications for the personnel, for the facilities, for the accounting, for the sanitation, for all the various aspects of the program. And that was so popular, and as we said, the program was growing so rapidly in so many things that in a couple of years we had to go back in and make a second edition, and then in a couple of years we had a third edition. A School Lunch Policies and Standards Guide.
JM: Now that was before the National School Lunch Act was passed?
TF: Oh, yes. You see, that started in 1943 when the first School Lunch Bulletin came out, and then the National School Lunch Act passed before we finished the things of course.
TW: In fact, your career began with W.P.A.
TF: Yes, my career began with W.P.A., and there again we had some school lunch supervisors from the southern states get together and develop some recipes because there were no recipe guides that were suited to school lunch and the use of commodities and things of that sort.
TW: What was different under W. P. A. and what occurred, what was it, May 1, 1943, when you left W.P.A. and started in food service management as a state director?
TF: The W.P.A. was a program to give jobs to needy people. They had other W.P.A. projects like gardening and canning and sewing and things of that, housekeeping aid, and so forth of that sort. So far as the school nutrition program was concerned, when the state departments of education took over, it became part of the school program. The W.P.A. liquidated on the end of April in 1943, and the Georgia State Department of Education and the Florida State Department of Education, because of concerned superintendents, established school lunch offices. I finished work in Jacksonville the last day of April in 1943 and drove to Tallahassee and the next morning; became the state department of education supervisor. Georgia did the same thing. But the other states did not do that until later years. You had a recognition by the state departments of education that this was a permanent part of an education system, an important part of the education system, and that state and county school boards needed to concern themselves with that, and make standards and to begin to have that as an official department within those departments of education.
JM: And then the professional association was formed. The American School Food Service Association, how did it come into being?
TF: Well, you had two associations that were in operation before that. Frank Worsham from Chicago and Alice Certain from Jacksonville, Florida, and some school lunch supervisors from all in between who had not come from a nutrition background, but who had become involved in operating local schools’ department formed a National Cafeteria Association. Whereas over in the New England states, Mary deGarmo Bryan, who was School Lunch Supervisor and professionally trained in the field of nutrition and mass feeding, formed a Conference of School Food Service Directors. And in 1944 when I wanted to have the first School Lunch workshop in Florida, I had been reading Food Management and different magazines, and I had heard about Constance Hart, who had a regular column in those magazines, and we invited her to come down and be the professor in a short course at Florida State College for Women and again for my Southern States Work Conference experience. We invited school lunch personnel from those 14 southern states to come to this short course at Florida State College for Women and there we began, you see, the in-service training of supervisory personnel who had come from various walks of life. And while Connie was there she was telling me about the Conference of Food Service Directors was going to have a meeting up in New York and invited me to go. And so I joined that organization. And then, after a few years, the two organizations merged and formed the American School Food Service Association.
JM: And so the American School Food Service Association and the National School Lunch Act were both formed the same year.
TF: That’s right.
JM: And then you became the third president of the American School Food Service Association.
TF: That’s right. I was secretary of the Conference of Food Service Directors and when the two associations merged, I was on the executive board and I became the third president.
JM: What do you consider the greatest achievement of your year as president of ASFSA?
TF: Oh, Jo. You asked a question that I, that question should have been asked long before now.
TW: Like before we started?
TF: Yes. Like before we started. Because actually, I don’t consider…
JM: You worked on personnel standards.
TF: Yes, I know I did.
JM: That’s okay, we will just go on to another one. The program was born, and the Association was born, and things rocked on for a while. And then in the 1960s the program began to take new wings. Do you want to talk about what happened in the ’60s with the passage of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, and the funds for providing additional services for needy children?
TF: You’ve got me thrown there, too.
JM: Okay. Let’s go back and talk about; I’ll tell you what, let’s talk about that workshop in Iowa. What was the impact of that national workshop in Iowa?
TF: That was a good follow-up of the FSCW that we had, and there was no connection between the two. But the professor at Ames, Iowa, saw the need for school food service training nationwide for supervisory personnel, and our state college was committed to that sort of thing. They’d been doing it for years. And she invited a small group to come together and have a planning conference, and had, it was really almost a follow-up with the FSCW one. But it was a nationwide one where as the FSCW one was a Southeast Region.
JM: And there you had state department of education personnel and college and university personnel?
TF: Well, the participants were primarily school food service supervisors from the 50 states. Of course, all the states were not represented, but they were all invited. And it was not all state department personnel; there were district personnel as well as state department personnel.
JM: And, let’s go back to Southern States just a minute. You said fourteen southern states and who were the personnel, who were the people who went to the Southern States Work Conference, the kind of people?
TF: Well, they were primarily city or county supervisors. All the states did not have state directors there at the beginning, you see, because not all of the states established state school lunch directors until the passage of the National School Lunch Act. And we started before that. But we just sent out an invitation, getting the best mailing list we could, to superintendents and they passed it on to supervisors. And we had city supervisors, and county supervisors, and state department people at the one at Tallahassee.
JM: And the fouteen states ranged from Texas to Kentucky to West Virginia –
TF: Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia and Florida. I may have missed one.
JM: So when we say Southern States we cover the whole area.
TF: You cover from Texas on up to Arkansas and then across Tennessee and Virginia, down to Key West.
JM: So networking and partnerships that are so popular today, that whole concept is not new, is it?
TF: No, that partnership concept was in existence before we adapted it, and we adapted it partly because with the Southern States Work Conference you had transportation people come together and do things, you had elementary education people come together and do things, and music teachers. Different groups had gone there because of the administrative view there of Dr. Morphet, who was a member of the Department of Education staff and who got general education funds to help publish some of the documents that were produced at that conference.
TW: Why do you think there was so much activity generated from the South, from the southern states?
TF: Well, I think we’ve hit the nail on the head. People like Dr. Morphet in a state department of education who see a need; and it started out with some of the accounting and transportation problems, that you had untrained personnel and no standards and so he’d bring them together, and their families would come and they’d have a vacation in Daytona Beach while those people sat out and wrote procedures and guidelines for the operation of their programs to improve standards. I don’t know how many bulletins on how many subjects, as the Southern States Work Conference called them, but they’d usually have about three subjects each time and you’d have about three groups and you’d sit down in a classroom situation and brainstorm together and pencil push together and develop materials; and then you’d go take a swim, and then you’d go back for a couple of hours in the afternoon, but you began to know each other, the supervisors in their respective areas.
TW: I like the format of that conference. Take a few hours and go swimming. Why in the South? Was there more vision here? Was there greater need here than in other areas of the country? Was it a combination of those two?
TF: Actually, I wouldn’t know because I am not aware of any such thing ever having happened in any other section of the country, and I think part of it was that the state superintendents, particularly Georgia and Florida, which is where they came, those two superintendents had worked together as friends and things, and then again Dr. Morphet. And you just strided on the first go around and I don’t remember which subject was the first subject, or which was the first year that the Southern States Work Conference came into existence, because I didn’t know about it until it had publications dealing with several things.
TW: From where you began, to where the National Food Service Management Institute is today, what is the greatest change that you’ve seen, positive change that you’ve seen from those beginnings to where we are?
TF: I think that the greatest change is that all of the states expect and promote personnel training, and they also have standards for School Lunch facilities. They have accounting and financial requirements for them all, but that is a part of their rules of education, of any aspect, whether it is their transportation program or their school building program or anything, you’ve got to have some uniform standards.
TW: And building blocks, and you’re so important to our building blocks, to how we are going to talk more.
JM: And, Thelma, when the program first started back in the ’40s, it was the school lunch program, and even then the Southern States Work Conference addressed issues such as serving breakfast to children at school who needed it. Do you want to talk about the expansion of the program, to a year-round program now?
TF: Well, we have schools that are operating year-round, and feeding for the children is very essential. You have more children that you are transporting and you have fewer small community schools where they can go home for lunch or bring a packed lunch. So it is just taken for granted that the child nutrition program will go from breakfast to lunch and now many of the child nutrition programs are serving senior citizens who come to the school.
JM: Do you think that is an important trend?
TF: Yes, I do. I think it is a very important trend because I think that you will find friendships for the children who lacked some loving person to look after them at noon, and some senior citizen who comes in there and develops a friendship, and things of that sort there. There are lots of dividends from that new expansion of the child feeding program.
JM: Let’s talk about some of the early beginnings of the child nutrition program, or the school food service program. How did it get started in Florida? Do you have some interesting stories to tell us?
TF: Well, I have two that I think are very significant. I’ve forgotten the years of the thing, but in Pinellas County, that St. Petersburg/Clearwater area, in one of the schools there, an interested doctor knew that the school grounds was quite a large area with some grassy pasture there, and there was a pump house and a building over on a corner of the campus, and so he had an idea and persuaded the principal to let him put a cow on that campus, and then they milked that cow and gave that milk to some hungry children. And that next year they opened a school lunch program.
JM: So that was a motivating factor.
TF: Yes. And then over in Pensacola, an elementary principal saw some kids coming to school who were very hungry kids. So she got several of the teachers to bring some food for them, and they heated the food down in the basement by the stove and fed some hungry children who were coming to school without any food.
JM: Now, we use commodities a great deal in school nutrition programs today. Do you have any funny stories about commodities in the early days?
TF: Yes. And of course we had “abundant foods” and the commodities. But a friend of mine in Tennessee gave me this story, and it was actual. It was Louise Sublette who did that. This woman wrote to the supervisor and said, “I boiled ’em and I fried ’em, and they ain’t fit to eat yet, but you just give me a little while and I’ll get those kids to liking grapefruit.”
JM: That’s a really great story, and I think there was something that was kind of interesting that happened when you were ASFSA President and your national meeting was in Kansas City?
TF: Oh, yes. I was President when Mr. Truman was President, and that was his hometown. And when we had our national convention there, he happened to decide to come home. And so he had the Presidential Suite, so I didn’t get to use the Presidential Suite, which most presidents have, but furthermore, about every time he’d be wanting or needing to go up or down the elevator, we would be needing to go to a meeting, but we had to wait until after his contingent had gone up or down the elevator, so we had to start 2 or 3 meetings late because of competition with the President of the United States.
TW: At the beginning of the school food service program how were those meals achieved? You talked about having a cow at a water pump and milking the cow for the children. It sounds as if these things were run almost voluntarily at the beginning, or PTA oriented, or in some cases maybe an individual would come in and run the cafeteria for the kids for profit. Could you just describe maybe what the beginning point was, how most schools operated in providing meals for the children when we’re making the transition from the tin pail, bringing meals to schools, to where we are today?
TF: Of course it varied from place to place. But the school I went to, the elementary school, there was no school lunch program at any time. We all took a packed lunch. And then when we moved into town school, which was 8 miles away in the school bus, the PTA operated the school lunch program. In other schools it would be an individual who saw a need, and it was just like a restaurant. The principal would let her come in, use an abandoned classroom, and put up a stove, and maybe they even had to bring water in from outside, and operate her program. And so the early program, there were some where the PTA had a genuine interest, and a PTA-gathered group of volunteers would do the thing. It varied greatly. And it was not until the National School Lunch Act passed of course, that you began to have it in all the schools. The W.P.A. had the programs there, and their purpose, of course, was to give jobs to needy people. Their concern at the output was feeding kids, but the W.P.A. was not concerned with feeding the kids; they were interested in giving jobs to unemployed people.
TW: So oddly enough, what motivates most of us, which is the nurturing of children, wasn’t really the goal of a lot of these programs.
TF: No, it was not the goal in the beginning at all; they were started and operated for various and sundry purposes, but not to meet the child utrition needs of the school day.
JM: You have said throughout this discussion that it is important to have the principal involved, and parents involved, and teachers involved, and to have caring, dedicated, committed personnel. Where do you think we are today? Do we need to go back to some of those early visions of child nutrition programs if we are going to meet the needs of the 1990s kids?
TF: And you’ve omitted one that is a big gap. And that is that we have operated the programs independent of the classroom teachers from the standpoint of using it as an education tool. And there again your department in developing Barely Bear and all the fine materials in closing that final gap, that the teachers of this nation will now have available good tools to teach nutrition to all of the elementary school children of the United States of America.
TW: Child Nutrition is not confined to the cafeteria is what you are saying, nor to the school building.
TF: It should not be. It should be the total school’s efforts there.
JM: And the school nutrition program belongs to the school.
TF: Yes, indeed. It is an integral part of the education program out of the health services.
JM: Well you have given us a lot of background which I think will be of great interest to child nutrition personnel throughout the country.
TF: Well, I am ancient history in the school lunch program.
JM: I wouldn’t say that.
TW: Let me ask you, is that a leprechaun? That’s a keebler; that’s Mr. Keebler!
TF: Yes, that’s Mr. Keebler. He was one of the early leaders, and one of our exhibitors for many years, and a good friend of mine. The Association has not ever tackled anything regarding the qualifications of personnel and that is what it should stand for. And, then the second thing, and then I’ve let slip my mind what the second thing is…
JM: Use the material and qualified personnel in association, accepting responsibility, standards, program standards. Something like an accreditation program?
TF: Oh, yes, that, an accreditation program, but there is one other thing that the Association and the state departments of education should be pushing for, uniform standards for personnel and real, parallel to school accreditation, established from the standards, and accreditation for the departments. And we should aim at having all of the school lunch departments accredited just as we try to have all of our schools accredited, all of them staffed with bonafide personnel. We put our money on commodities, we put our money on federal aid, we put our emphasis on facilities, but we have not dealt with the personnel aspects of the program. Required supervision, the USDA has never required it; qualification of supervision, the USDA has never required it. All the way through, you see, and the Association has neither. And we’ve become too much concerned with suppliers, and things of that sort, but not the basics. We’ve got a long way to go.
JM: Thelma, we have not talked about the position that Agnes Meyer took. Remember back in the ’40s when she said that school lunch should be provided in the same way of books and transportation and other parts?
TF: Yes. And see that was even back before our day. She was talking in the early, early days of the thing.
JM: So, now as we talk about the child nutrition programs being accessible to all children, the disabled and the needy, the various ethnic groups, our diverse populations, then the nutrition services should be provided in the same way. Would you like to comment on that?
TF: Yes, but we were also talking within the agency that we think of the consumable food as parallel to pencils and tablet paper. But, if the child comes to school without a pencil or tablet paper, they get it somewhere or they just skip that. But if the parent doesn’t have money for food, the child doesn’t get food unless we have a child nutrition program and therefore there is a justification for continued federal, state, and local aid that makes it available for every child to have breakfast and lunch if he needs that to meet his nutrition promise and we still have a long way to go on that.
JM: And we need to be combining that with a nutrition education program so that the children are learning healthy food practices –
JM: – learning to make wise choices.
TF: And there is where your department is coming in. We are making the first national effort to provide any sort of material that would help even an interested teacher tackle the job. They didn’t have the resources to do the job; they had to think it out and develop their own materials. But now you’ve got the materials. And we hope that they will soon make that a permanent addition to the National School Lunch Act, not just one that has to be looked at every few years, and well, do we drop it or do we expand it or do we leave it as is?
JM: We haven’t talked about another part of the program that you were very much involved in and that is in getting national policies established, the entire governance process. You were very much involved in making trips to Washington, working with USDA to get the right kind of legislation, back in the days when you were active. Do you want to say anything about that?
TF: Well, we had a national legislative committee, most of it people invited by the USDA who were sympathetic and were supportive of the USDA and appeared before Congress on hearings. But now the American School Food Service Association does I think an unusually good job on that aspect of the program. Then, the program was this Congressman happened to know this school lunch supervisor or this member of the USDA happened to know this person, and they’d bring us in together for appearing in Congressional hearings and things like that. But now your legislative conferences that ASFSA has, we really spend more time on some of those things, getting money, than we do on these basic aspects because we found it was very essential to do it; but we should never have been neglecting the materials for teachers and the nutrition standards for personnel and sound specifications for the things that are served. And one of the things that bother me now also is, that both our suppliers and our exhibitors and our ads in the journal are not all preaching good nutrition and it bothers me greatly.
JM: I am going to hop back to continuing education for one minute. You live in the John Knox Home in Tampa, and that is across the street from Florida Southern?
TF: No, University of –
JM: University of South Florida? And it is my understanding that you are still taking courses?
TF: Well, under Florida we have it, and I don’t know how many or if any of the other states have it, but under Florida law we have had for quite a few years now, where the entire university system, after they’ve registered the regular students and then they run that through the computers, and they’ll have a list of classes where they will have vacant seats. And then we register the senior citizens. And you may register for any course, no fees, no grades, just take the course. And then we do have a group of senior citizens who do that registration, who do that promotion, and work with a very small staff at the University in making it available to the senior citizens of the state. And I take a course every semester, and have every semester since 1981, when I moved there. I’ve run the gamut from art to music to what have you. But you will also be interested in this. That at, three years ago, or maybe four, I took a course in nutrition over in the School of Medicine, but the only students in there were female nurses. I said, “Aren’t there any men doctors in this course?” and they said, “We do not require the doctors to take nutrition.” Now whether that is all medical schools or just that medical school, but there were no men in there. But also in that course I happened to have had the text book that I had taken in a nutrition course as FSCW, I mean FSU, in 1957 I think it was, before I retired, and compared it with the textbook we were using there, and so many of the things weren’t even mentioned in that textbook. The current nutrition concerns that weren’t even in a textbook that was just a little over ten years old.
JM: So we can’t say that because we are certified or because we have a degree –
JM: But we have to continue to learn and continue to sharpen our skills.
TF: You have to keep up-to-date in any field. New developments are so entirely different. Just like schools now have computers. They weren’t heard of a few years ago.
JM: Well, I guess, one other thing I remember you saying, since we’ve been together this time, that children don’t care what you serve, as long as you serve them with care. Didn’t you say that?
TF: I probably did. Loving tender care works.